Talk:Larry Doby

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Good articleLarry Doby has been listed as one of the Sports and recreation good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
August 27, 2012Good article nomineeListed
October 13, 2012Peer reviewReviewed
May 24, 2014Featured article candidateNot promoted
Current status: Good article

Year of birth[edit]

I'm not sure about the Larry Doby's birth year. Some sources say 1923, others say 1924. I'm going with 1923, because that is the year in MLB's obituary of Doby. [1] RADICALBENDER 18:54, 15 May 2004 (UTC)[]

No worries, I've read multiple sources that state 1923. The toughest part is NNL stats. Zepppep (talk) 11:11, 1 August 2012 (UTC)[]

biography?[edit]

is there a good biography out there about doby? Kingturtle 23:07, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[]

Check the references section. The definitive is one is by Joseph Thomas Moore. Zepppep (talk) 11:11, 1 August 2012 (UTC)[]

Sports Illustrated editorial.[edit]

About this nugget, "During the 1997 season, when the long-departed Jackie Robinson's number 42 was being retired throughout baseball, and the still-living Larry Doby was being virtually ignored by the media, an editorial in Sports Illustrated pointed out that Doby had to suffer the same indignities that Robinson did, and with nowhere near the media attention and implicit support."

Does anyone have the original editorial article handy, or at least know in which issue it was published?Perplexed 15:44, 9 June 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Perplexed (talkcontribs)

Photo of Doby and Gromek[edit]

View the picture from the Plain Dealer here. Zepppep (talk) 07:28, 4 August 2012 (UTC)[]

Image[edit]

I've been asked to help peer-review this for possible advancement to FA. I made some technical edits for footnote placement and the like, and more neutral language in one instance. It's a long and well-written article with encyclopedic tone. Without combing through it, the only significant addition I would make is to caption and identify the image "Larry Doby 1951.jpg," a Bowman baseball card. --Tenebrae (talk) 20:48, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[]

GA Review[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This review is transcluded from Talk:Larry Doby/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Wizardman (talk · contribs) 14:57, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[]

I'll review this article soon. Since this article is part of my big project, I'm going to give this a rather strict review to make sure everything looks good with it. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 14:57, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[]

Here are some comments to start off:

  • One-sentence paragraphs should be avoided. The first and fourth lead paragraphs could be combined.
  • "before he served in the" before serving in.
  • "win the Negro leagues World Series over pitching legend Satchel Paige, who later became a teammate of his with the Cleveland Indians." rm pitching legend; while he is we can't be adding stuff like that in.
  • ref 9 needs publisher info.
  • The first ref isn't a reliable source.
  • There are a couple refs without access dates, and a couple that are just care URLs. Those need fixing.

Those will probably take a bit of time, but once the refs are fixed the article should be a bit easier to modify. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 16:49, 10 August 2012 (UTC)[]

 Done Good eye. For refs which lacked an access date, I visited the sites/articles/books today to make sure they were still "alive" and noted the date per referencing guideline. For items which utilized ref. no. 9, used a different source (there was nothing from that source which was original). Zepppep (talk) 02:25, 13 August 2012 (UTC)[]

Comments on early life section:

  • "was born 13 December, 1923, in Camden," December 13
  • "moved to Paterson, New Jersey but Doby would stay behind, first living with his grandmother but eventually his father's sister and brother-in-law and lived with them from 1934-1938." I'd split this sentence up. It's a bit tough to decipher when he moved around as written.
  • " which under South Carolina state law, was segregated. " which was segregated under.. sounds a bit better.
  • "Paterson, New Jersey (the same Eastside High in the 1989 film Lean On Me starring Morgan Freeman)." new jersey can be removed since we know that's where paterson is from the previous para. also, the comment in parentheses should be removed, feels too tangential.
  • ", Doby was accepted an offer to play for the Newark Eagles of the Negro National League for the remainder of the season.[5]:p.83" Doby accepted; also, what year? Wizardman Operation Big Bear 04:36, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[]
 Done Zepppep (talk) 10:02, 16 August 2012 (UTC) I added some more details and removed items (such as BA during rookie season with Eagles, first year he played with Crescents, etc.) which came from a few sources.[]

Looks good. Here's the rest of my comments:

  • "Doby joined the Eagles of the Negro National League in 1942 " can just say "...joined the Eagles in 1942."
  • "signed under the name "Larry Walker" and that he originated from Los Angeles, California." feels like it's missing a part. Did it mean to say "..a name that he originated..."?
  • "a four-team doubleheader which also included" what exactly is a four-team doubleheader?
One ticket to see two games, but rather than simply a double header between only two teams, the other game involves two different teams. I removed that portion which mentioned Campanella. Zepppep (talk) 03:54, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[]
  • "He finished one home run behind the league leaders, Josh Gibson and Johnny Davis" how many did he have?
I changed sources. However, I see the new source I've used (Baseball-Ref) is at odds with stats given in the Martin book. Oh, the fun of sifting through Negro Leagues stats! I suppose I'll have to make a footnote? The former says Doby's average (sub .230) for the '46 Series was the lowest for an Eagle; the latter states he hit well over .350. Zepppep (talk) 03:54, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[]
  • "5 RBIs and recorded 3 stolen bases." five, three
  • "given the chance engage with his one-day teammates." the chance to engage.
  • "Doby's at-bat.[23]From" space after ref
  • "and was did not fail to get" reword
  • "."[26]:.69" p.69
 Done (all of the above, except for a footnote) Zepppep (talk) 03:54, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[]
  • The post-1948 years as a whole feel really light, especially after how detailed his integration was in the article. If this is planned for FA I would certainly add to that, and I'd at least like to see a bit more detail here for GA status.
That is my intention. A lot of the sources are heavy on the '47 season. I'm still hoping to find more that deals with his several years in CLE. Wow, FA? That'd be awesome! Zepppep (talk) 03:54, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[]
 Done Zepppep (talk) 00:31, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[]
  • I'm wondering if you've looked at the book "Larry Doby: The Struggle of the American League's First Black Player" It's written by Moore, who wrote the main bio used already so I don't know if it would add anything. I've heard it's somewhat of a reprint of the book used here, so if it is, then don't worry about this point.
I haven't, but I have noticed a lot of the McFarland & Co. books have very similar content/writing/stats. I have found Moore (Praeger Publishing) to be consistent, however. Zepppep (talk) 03:54, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[]
  • While I know that's the only free image of Doby out there, adding another image may be beneficial. Joe Gordon has a free image that can be added to the 1947 section.
Yes, I have been thinking about going to a notice board or searching out someone who enjoys finding pics for WP. It would really help add to the article. Zepppep (talk) 03:54, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[]

I'm through the 1948 season paragraph, and before I continue I'd like to see the post-48 years expanded a bit. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 22:06, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[]

Added another image. I'm wondering if adding the Gromek/Doby image would be okay. It's non-free, but it's significant enough that it may pass the non-free criteria. Just throwing that out there as an option. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 19:16, 20 August 2012 (UTC)[]
That's awesome! I had tried searching Wiki Commons and several of the sites listed but no luck. This certainly adds something! As you may have noticed, I worked on the article a bit within the past 24 hours, too. Zepppep (talk) 02:09, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[]
Considering the effect the Gromek/Doby smile picture had, and the significance given to it in the article, I would agree it meets the non-free criteria. Zepppep (talk) 02:13, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[]
Sounds good. The length's looking better now, so I'll wrap up the reading tomorrow. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 04:53, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[]
So you believe the photo passes non-free criteria and should be added, is my assumption correct? Zepppep (talk) 00:31, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[]

Let me know when you're done with the expansion and I'll add in my final comments. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 03:51, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[]

I would venture to say I'm done with the 48-56 years section. I have been trying to add to the latter parts of the article. Cheers! Zepppep (talk) 04:08, 25 August 2012 (UTC)[]
I think the only thing left I'm considering implementing would be the generic outline for baseball players, which would perhaps change/add subsection heading names to "Legacy" and "Highlights and Awards." As for prose, I think I'm done for the time being. I've added lots more for the 48-56 years, and all other sections have substantial content. (I see in a paid archive blurb his NPB BA was .224, but I am not able to find a full or free source yet.) Zepppep (talk) 00:32, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[]

Looks far better now. Here are the remainder of my comments:

  • "Nationally-syndicated columnist Grantland Rice argued without Doby" argued that
  • "He earned career-bests in batting average, .326, and hits, 164, and On-base percentage (OBP), .442, while playing in 142 games." putting the units in parentheses might look better, also remove the first and next to hits.
  • "His 21-game hit-streak was the second-longest for the Indians" up to that point or for the season? I ask since Mitchell's a contemporary ballplayer for Doby.
  • Linking the years to the season articles tends to be discouraged. I'm fine with keeping them in, just a heads up that if you go to FAC they'll probably ask for their removal.
  • "Harrison and Indians team doctor" Dillard and the Indians
  • That sentence noted above doesn't make sense. For example, " said Doby's leg injuries, which began near the end of the 1950 season and worsened during the 1951 campaign, also proscribed lower-body warm-ups " what did they say about his leg injuries? That part's skipped and it jumps to treating them.
  • "He led the AL in strikeouts for the second and final time in his career, a career-high 121 times, but hit 29 home runs and 102 RBIs on the year and only two other players in the AL drew more walks on the season than Doby." cite should be added here
Added.
  • His second-place mvp finish in 1954 should be mentioned.
  • "in the AL in team home runs 116." with 116.
  • "June 22,1956, Doby" add space after 22,
  • "The White Sox had won eight straight, longest winning" the longest
  • 1958 and 1959 can be expanded slightly, though he played sparingly so i'm a lot less concerned about the length there.
  • "He hit .218 with four RBIs before Detroit sold the 34-year old Doby to the White Sox on May 13 for "over the waiver price" of $20,000.[71][72] During the same season, Doby was traded to the White Sox, again acquired by Veeck...Doby, at 35 years of age..." this is either a duplicate or a contradiction, either way that needs to be fixed.
The St. Petes Times said 34. I have changed it to read 35.
  • Final two paras in later years can be combined. Also, was there a point where he officially retired from mlb around 1960 or so or did he just seem to stop playing?
  • "After retiring as a player, Doby began as a scout with the Montreal Expos in 1969" began doesn't seem like the right word here, id try a different one.
Replaced with "became".
  • "including Águilas del Zulia from the 1970-1971 winter season." during the
  • "Doby rejoined the Indians as first base coach for manager Ken Aspromonte." when?
Added 1974.
  • a lot of -s will need to be replaced with &ndashs, namely for win-loss records and scores, but that can be done with a script at a later point.
I can go ahead and do it.
  • "In addition to be named" to being named.
  • "Doby named special assistant to the AL's first president, Gene Budig, on April 17, 1995" was named, also he was the last president, not the first.
  • "Long before Dob was inducted" Doby
  • I think the personal life section's contents can be merged into the rest of the article with little difficulty, and could help it flow better. I'll leave that up to you though.
Yes, I was debating that a bit. I think his marriage, work after the NPB assignment but before joining Montreal, and relationship with the Berras (since the Larry Doby wing is previously mentioned) could be introduced into other parts. Going to keep the section as a whole though, as I don't want to figure out how (and when) to weave birth of his children and great-grandchildren into the article, as well as Helyn's death. (This, perhaps adding a bit to '58-'59, and the dashes are the only thing I have not addressed as of: (time stamp)) Zepppep (talk) 04:32, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[]

I'll put the article on hold, and once everything's addressed here I'll pass it. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 02:19, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[]

 Done I added more details to the '58 section. I feel the '59 season is pretty well addressed already. There is plenty in the article regarding his ankle injury in '59 and subsequent attempts in '60 to make a team (either MLB or Int'l League) that I believe the reader is well informed. I have included a reference to an article ('61) which mentions Doby being "retired", but of course, he would go to play in the NPB in '62. I feel in Oct. '62, after he had played with the Dragons, would serve as his "official" retirement as a player. Just like NPB stats, however, I have not been able to turn up an "official" announcement quote from him after that episode. Also, there is a red link with reference #68; I can make it non-linkable text if you'd wish, but am OK with there being a red link for a page not yet created. All the other items you've mentioned have been edited/changed, however, and per your review, believe this article is now ready to be recognized as a GA! Zepppep (talk) 10:46, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[]

Everything looks good now, so I'll pass this. If you are looking at FAC, what I would suggest is going to PR first and having a second set of eyes look at it; ideally a non-baseball person will take a look so they'll catch things I might have missed. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 15:44, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[]
Many thanks for your hours spent on reviewing this. It was a few firsts for me (first GA nomination, first GA approved) and you made it a pleasure. I will definitely look to pursue PR in hopes of getting this to FA one day. Thanks again! Zepppep (talk) 16:05, 27 August 2012 (UTC)[]

Comments on 1947 section[edit]

Wizardman asked me to look at this section with a view to FAC. I did some cutting, which anyone can freely revert if I've messed anything up.

  • ”Veeck hoped a quick arrival to Cleveland would keep the pressure Doby would feel to a minimum.”: I don’t quite understand this.
  • ”Unlike the Brooklyn Dodgers' Branch Rickey who in 1945 declined to pay for the purchasing rights of Robinson with the Kansas City Monarchs, Veeck was "determined to buy Doby's contract from the Eagles.””: And I’m not too sure about this. The quote also requires in-text attribution.
  • I’m not too sure about using “her second baseman” to describe Doby.
  • ”The two took a train from Newark to Chicago where the Indians were scheduled to play the Chicago White Sox the next day.”: Apparently unreferenced at the end of the paragraph.
  • ”Veeck hired two plainclothes police officers to accompany Doby as he went to Comiskey Park to prevent the large number of black fans from affecting the first black player to enter an American League stadium.”: These two ideas do not seem connected. How could the police stop Doby being affected?
  • ”Bill Veeck in the 1949 movie The Kid from Cleveland tells the story that Gordon struck out on three swings in his immediate at-bat after Doby to save face for his new teammate. However, Doby's second strike was the result of a foul ball, both the Associated Press and Chicago Tribune stated Doby struck out on five pitches instead of three, and in addition, Gordon was standing on third base during Doby's at-bat.”: This seems to waste a lot of time refuting something which doesn’t seem that important.
  • We also seem to dwell too long on the glove.
  • We mention his unfriendly team-mates twice, and we may be labouring the point.
  • I think some of the paragraphs would stand splitting, as it is quite a heavy wall of text in places. I think a few parts lend themselves to being broken up. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:27, 14 February 2014 (UTC)[]

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